(60 year old woman. Raised orthodox Jewish, heavily in the Old Testament, became Atheist as an adult, was saved and baptized Christian last year.)
I’ve learned this the hard way many times: humans, even parents, are flawed and can’t or won’t always save me from myself. I can’t put my full faith in humanity, I can only hope to be and do the best I can. So I believe in a supernatural God and Savior and I act on faith. Sometimes the only prayer that soothes me is the Psalm 23 (the Lord is my Shepherd…)
Forty six years as a Christian, I'm 66. I chuckle now at what I used to think of as a solid statement of Christian church fidelity - we are a new Testament church. I always heard it and the intention was we intend to be like the first century believers with no hypocrisy. However, as I got older, it began to dawn on me that the majority of the new testament was corrective in nature. These early believers were screwing up just like we do today!
I believe it is Paul Copan in "Is God A Moral Monster?" who says that the works of God throughout history do not appear to be efficient as men think of efficiency, but they are effective. He says this in the book which explores many of the issues in the Bible that believers and non- believers struggle with in regard to who is this God who purports to be Love!
I will not go on like Job's friends, but leave it that Jesus does not answer all our questions, but He does tell us that he who seeks, will find. It is incumbent upon each believer to continue to pursue the Lord as they are the people that God is seeking.
In relation to his statement about not understanding how the pastor, flawed though he certainly was, could preach such an amazing sermon, Philippians 1:15-18 came to mind. Paul said:
"Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from goodwill: The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice."
No sermon here, just a Scriptural perspective on a question he had that struck me.
The other thing that came to mind was this. If you don't invite someone to church because you were burned by your former pastor's flaws, how do you know they won't wind up in an even more toxic church environment on their own? I hate to have to say this, but there are a lot more compromising churches and pastors out there these days than the solid, Gospel based and Preaching variety.
At least, if you've vetted this church you can be reasonably sure of what is on offer and you can be there if you see Satan working to damage what the church is doing. Above all, pray! Ask Him if this is where he wants this person to be. And then listen.
I’m super apprehensive of pastors because they’re in a role of “spiritual expert” or “guru” and they’re just given power and authority for completing seminary school. They didn’t earn it. If you want to be a ceo you have to work your way into that position - often over many years. But if you want to be a pastor, just go to college and then you can immediately be in a role of spiritual authority. I think that naturally draws in narcissists who seek ego stroking. I suspect there is an unusually high number of narcissists in pastoral roles. I’ve experienced maaany myself.
I think much of churchianity has been over-intellectualized, theologized, and turned into reason and argument. Narcissists are supremely good at those things. Most churches aren’t what I call “heart-centered,” they’re actually “head-centered.” Sermons sound like ted talks that are sprinkled with the linguistic understanding of Latin and ten dollar words like “substitutionary penal atonement theory”. Sounds slick, smart, and it's interesting - maybe it even blows your mind...but it's not necessarily “heart-centered.” Yet that is the norm in churchianity. It's actually what people want.
I prefer poorly spoken pastors who’ve never written a book and shake everyone’s hand after church.
Maybe this is a simplistic take, but the battle rages inside each one of us, too. The outside world gets in and fuels arrogance and pride. I too left a much loved church some years back—not because of those flaws in our pastor, but because he ignored those flaws in some of the staff and in ministry leaders and volunteers. He depended on them and was massively overworked, so he turned a blind eye. Understandable from a human point of view. The biggest part of the problem was that these particular people were dead certain they were in the right and doing God’s work, even as they verbally abused others and denigrated them. It was disheartening and exhausting, so we simply left. My point is, though, that the sin of arrogance afflicts all of us to varying degrees, and it’s too common amongst many in leadership. And it’s particularly damaging when someone is convinced he’s doing God’s will—which does make it possible to, say, give an inspiring sermon for instance. It actually does come from that person’s heart. Scary and disorienting stuff. The only true “cure” is loving surrender to the Father’s will, while still keeping a weather eye out for the wolves amongst the flock. Eventually, pride always exposes itself.
You named how I feel, especially the disorientation of "I didn't see it" and wondering if I'll spot it next time or... get blindsided again. And yet He is everything, and I cannot leave Him. But inviting people into the kingdom really bites when I know the pain that's (more than likely) awaiting people who say yes to participation in Christ's Body. All that to say, thanks for this—it's nice to know I'm not alone.
Are you even an American, 21st century Christian if you haven't gone through this a time or two? It seems that God weans us from this world--and yes, the worldly church--out of his love for the purity of our faith. It must be all Jesus, all the time, and we become prospectors, sifting golden truth out of the hard scrabble layed out for us by men. Not an easy or efficient undertaking--I hate it--but it seems to be his method of choice for his children. I, like the author, have known so many who have fallen away, their faith in tatters and their hearts hardened. But do we not see this from the beginning of scripture to the end? The chosen ones clinging to the Savior as their brethren fall away, licking wounds and tasting bitterness? Evil leaders will by no means be left unaccountable for leading the sheep astray. Nevertheless, God uses even them for great good when he chooses. Martin Luther famously said ,"For where God would build a church, there the Devil will also build a chapel." Living in hearty, loving fellowship with fellow believers, learning from and worshiping with flawed leaders whilst keeping a sharp lookout for wolves is exhausting, heartbreaking and often disheartening. God help us.
Yes, unfortunately I’ve become very suspicious if leaders appear to have all their ducks in a row. I’m much more comfortable when I see and know the people that are cracked and broken. I’m reminded of that Japanese art of the vases that have cracks and the veins filled with gold.
This article aptly describes what survivors of a cult experience and process. That is not to label his prior church a cult but rather to point out the mix of the good and the bad that allows cults and toxic leaders to exist under the radar as high functioning entities that may accomplish a great deal of good while simultaneously causing harm. It is, however, an ultimately unsustainable model.
In 1985 a 747 crashed in Japan as a result of a faulty repair made seven years earlier, killing over 500 people. Now, the 747 is a wonderful airplane and an engineering marvel, but a rear bulkhead gave way, and the resulting decompression blew the tail off. While the airplane remained in flight for some time, it ultimately could not land safely. No one who boarded the airplane expected it to crash. In fact, there was every expectation that it would reach its destination. Nothing on the surface indicated a problem, even though a fatal weakness would ultimately cause devastation.
I have often said that nobody wakes up and says, “Today I shall join a cult. It will take over my life, dominate my relationships, ruin my family, devastate my mental health, and ultimately shake my faith”. In fact, if cults were all bad, no one would ever sign up. If abusive leadership was all bad all the time, there would never be anything that would attract the interest of potential followers. As somebody who has had experience with bad leadership and cultic churches, I can tell you that it is a very slow burn and the problems can often take years to detect, let alone define.
As to how so flawed a pastor could deliver such a powerful message, well… That 747 flew thousands of people over several years with that fatal flaw just looking for a time and a place to blow. The successful flights did not legitimize a faulty repair , they only underscore that a bad situation can exist for a very long time before it explodes.
After my cult experience, I had a great deal of difficulty, trusting pastors. Even today, decades after the fact, I am not one given to implicit trust of anybody who has the word ‘ministry’ in their job title. The line between healthy skepticism and cynicism may not be very thick and it’s a hard road to walk. After many years, I find myself in an uneasy relationship with the church as an institution. I think it is a soft target for narcissists and abusers with few real guard rails in place to prevent them from coming to power. At the same time, there are wonderful and solid people in ministry, and I do not wish to impugn them by acknowledging the bad apples in the barrel.
While a major supporter of the 1st amendment and recognizing how important religion is to many people, I am atheist but have no issue with religious people. They are often the beat kind of folks.
What is missing here isn't just the fact that your minister was a narcissist...It's the reality that charlatans especially seek out the vulnerable and in professions that can easily manipulate their adherents for which religious belief is especially primed (imo), it is little surprise that the words of the gospel can be used thusly.
There is nothing wrong about seeking help and inspiration but ideally this ought to come from within where the REAL power lies.
"It's the reality that charlatans especially seek out the vulnerable and in professions that can easily manipulate their adherents for which religious belief is especially primed (imo)..."
I certainly agree with that part of your statement although I disagree with your last line. I was raised Roman Catholic and certainly aware how abusive nuns and priests could be, but I was saddened and heartbroken when the priest sexual abuse scandal broke. Even though I had already been forced out of the church by then, I did not feel vindicated in any way. I did have a work colleague who told me his son left the local seminary because all the students there were homosexuals. Of course they would be attracted to a lifestyle where they were socially accepted as celibate and could practice their sin in secrecy and cloak it under authority even if they were honestly ashamed of what they were doing.
Still, I agree with one of the commenters who pointed out the apostles' response to Christ's question, "Will you too leave me now?" with "Where would we go? You have the words of eternal life." The problem with seeking guidance from your true authentic self within is that, although you can find much good there, you will not find the first commandment. It's very hard to intellectually and internally come to the understanding of humility and why it is important. From your message, you are a clear thinker and seeker of the truth as, although an atheist, you recognize the many good people who are good at least partly because religion has an important place in their lives. You are also one who sees clearly how that impulse can be manipulated for evil.
May God bless you and keep you all the days of your life.
I currently hold the belief that if the Word of God is taught to a child of God, then it is only the Holy Spirit that does it. He may use the direct reading of the scripture, or the words of flawed humans, or almost any other method, but it is the Holy Spirit who is speaking.
The Holy Spirit authored the Holy Scriptures through the human writers. And he included the story of King David for good reason. The “man after God‘s own heart” who wrote beautiful Psalms, praising God, was also a bad father, and an adulterer, and a murderer.
Dear Brian, you have described an experience MANY of your readers, including me, can personally relate to because we've lived it, almost identically. Thanks for being an example of those of us who've decided to remain alert and cautious but not cynical, and not giving up on participation in a local body of believers in/followers of Jesus Christ.
(60 year old woman. Raised orthodox Jewish, heavily in the Old Testament, became Atheist as an adult, was saved and baptized Christian last year.)
I’ve learned this the hard way many times: humans, even parents, are flawed and can’t or won’t always save me from myself. I can’t put my full faith in humanity, I can only hope to be and do the best I can. So I believe in a supernatural God and Savior and I act on faith. Sometimes the only prayer that soothes me is the Psalm 23 (the Lord is my Shepherd…)
Peace to you all.
Forty six years as a Christian, I'm 66. I chuckle now at what I used to think of as a solid statement of Christian church fidelity - we are a new Testament church. I always heard it and the intention was we intend to be like the first century believers with no hypocrisy. However, as I got older, it began to dawn on me that the majority of the new testament was corrective in nature. These early believers were screwing up just like we do today!
I believe it is Paul Copan in "Is God A Moral Monster?" who says that the works of God throughout history do not appear to be efficient as men think of efficiency, but they are effective. He says this in the book which explores many of the issues in the Bible that believers and non- believers struggle with in regard to who is this God who purports to be Love!
I will not go on like Job's friends, but leave it that Jesus does not answer all our questions, but He does tell us that he who seeks, will find. It is incumbent upon each believer to continue to pursue the Lord as they are the people that God is seeking.
In relation to his statement about not understanding how the pastor, flawed though he certainly was, could preach such an amazing sermon, Philippians 1:15-18 came to mind. Paul said:
"Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from goodwill: The former preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice."
No sermon here, just a Scriptural perspective on a question he had that struck me.
The other thing that came to mind was this. If you don't invite someone to church because you were burned by your former pastor's flaws, how do you know they won't wind up in an even more toxic church environment on their own? I hate to have to say this, but there are a lot more compromising churches and pastors out there these days than the solid, Gospel based and Preaching variety.
At least, if you've vetted this church you can be reasonably sure of what is on offer and you can be there if you see Satan working to damage what the church is doing. Above all, pray! Ask Him if this is where he wants this person to be. And then listen.
Agape.
I’m super apprehensive of pastors because they’re in a role of “spiritual expert” or “guru” and they’re just given power and authority for completing seminary school. They didn’t earn it. If you want to be a ceo you have to work your way into that position - often over many years. But if you want to be a pastor, just go to college and then you can immediately be in a role of spiritual authority. I think that naturally draws in narcissists who seek ego stroking. I suspect there is an unusually high number of narcissists in pastoral roles. I’ve experienced maaany myself.
I think much of churchianity has been over-intellectualized, theologized, and turned into reason and argument. Narcissists are supremely good at those things. Most churches aren’t what I call “heart-centered,” they’re actually “head-centered.” Sermons sound like ted talks that are sprinkled with the linguistic understanding of Latin and ten dollar words like “substitutionary penal atonement theory”. Sounds slick, smart, and it's interesting - maybe it even blows your mind...but it's not necessarily “heart-centered.” Yet that is the norm in churchianity. It's actually what people want.
I prefer poorly spoken pastors who’ve never written a book and shake everyone’s hand after church.
Maybe this is a simplistic take, but the battle rages inside each one of us, too. The outside world gets in and fuels arrogance and pride. I too left a much loved church some years back—not because of those flaws in our pastor, but because he ignored those flaws in some of the staff and in ministry leaders and volunteers. He depended on them and was massively overworked, so he turned a blind eye. Understandable from a human point of view. The biggest part of the problem was that these particular people were dead certain they were in the right and doing God’s work, even as they verbally abused others and denigrated them. It was disheartening and exhausting, so we simply left. My point is, though, that the sin of arrogance afflicts all of us to varying degrees, and it’s too common amongst many in leadership. And it’s particularly damaging when someone is convinced he’s doing God’s will—which does make it possible to, say, give an inspiring sermon for instance. It actually does come from that person’s heart. Scary and disorienting stuff. The only true “cure” is loving surrender to the Father’s will, while still keeping a weather eye out for the wolves amongst the flock. Eventually, pride always exposes itself.
You named how I feel, especially the disorientation of "I didn't see it" and wondering if I'll spot it next time or... get blindsided again. And yet He is everything, and I cannot leave Him. But inviting people into the kingdom really bites when I know the pain that's (more than likely) awaiting people who say yes to participation in Christ's Body. All that to say, thanks for this—it's nice to know I'm not alone.
Are you even an American, 21st century Christian if you haven't gone through this a time or two? It seems that God weans us from this world--and yes, the worldly church--out of his love for the purity of our faith. It must be all Jesus, all the time, and we become prospectors, sifting golden truth out of the hard scrabble layed out for us by men. Not an easy or efficient undertaking--I hate it--but it seems to be his method of choice for his children. I, like the author, have known so many who have fallen away, their faith in tatters and their hearts hardened. But do we not see this from the beginning of scripture to the end? The chosen ones clinging to the Savior as their brethren fall away, licking wounds and tasting bitterness? Evil leaders will by no means be left unaccountable for leading the sheep astray. Nevertheless, God uses even them for great good when he chooses. Martin Luther famously said ,"For where God would build a church, there the Devil will also build a chapel." Living in hearty, loving fellowship with fellow believers, learning from and worshiping with flawed leaders whilst keeping a sharp lookout for wolves is exhausting, heartbreaking and often disheartening. God help us.
Yes, unfortunately I’ve become very suspicious if leaders appear to have all their ducks in a row. I’m much more comfortable when I see and know the people that are cracked and broken. I’m reminded of that Japanese art of the vases that have cracks and the veins filled with gold.
This article aptly describes what survivors of a cult experience and process. That is not to label his prior church a cult but rather to point out the mix of the good and the bad that allows cults and toxic leaders to exist under the radar as high functioning entities that may accomplish a great deal of good while simultaneously causing harm. It is, however, an ultimately unsustainable model.
In 1985 a 747 crashed in Japan as a result of a faulty repair made seven years earlier, killing over 500 people. Now, the 747 is a wonderful airplane and an engineering marvel, but a rear bulkhead gave way, and the resulting decompression blew the tail off. While the airplane remained in flight for some time, it ultimately could not land safely. No one who boarded the airplane expected it to crash. In fact, there was every expectation that it would reach its destination. Nothing on the surface indicated a problem, even though a fatal weakness would ultimately cause devastation.
I have often said that nobody wakes up and says, “Today I shall join a cult. It will take over my life, dominate my relationships, ruin my family, devastate my mental health, and ultimately shake my faith”. In fact, if cults were all bad, no one would ever sign up. If abusive leadership was all bad all the time, there would never be anything that would attract the interest of potential followers. As somebody who has had experience with bad leadership and cultic churches, I can tell you that it is a very slow burn and the problems can often take years to detect, let alone define.
As to how so flawed a pastor could deliver such a powerful message, well… That 747 flew thousands of people over several years with that fatal flaw just looking for a time and a place to blow. The successful flights did not legitimize a faulty repair , they only underscore that a bad situation can exist for a very long time before it explodes.
After my cult experience, I had a great deal of difficulty, trusting pastors. Even today, decades after the fact, I am not one given to implicit trust of anybody who has the word ‘ministry’ in their job title. The line between healthy skepticism and cynicism may not be very thick and it’s a hard road to walk. After many years, I find myself in an uneasy relationship with the church as an institution. I think it is a soft target for narcissists and abusers with few real guard rails in place to prevent them from coming to power. At the same time, there are wonderful and solid people in ministry, and I do not wish to impugn them by acknowledging the bad apples in the barrel.
It’s a hard road to walk.
Jim K.
While a major supporter of the 1st amendment and recognizing how important religion is to many people, I am atheist but have no issue with religious people. They are often the beat kind of folks.
What is missing here isn't just the fact that your minister was a narcissist...It's the reality that charlatans especially seek out the vulnerable and in professions that can easily manipulate their adherents for which religious belief is especially primed (imo), it is little surprise that the words of the gospel can be used thusly.
There is nothing wrong about seeking help and inspiration but ideally this ought to come from within where the REAL power lies.
"It's the reality that charlatans especially seek out the vulnerable and in professions that can easily manipulate their adherents for which religious belief is especially primed (imo)..."
I certainly agree with that part of your statement although I disagree with your last line. I was raised Roman Catholic and certainly aware how abusive nuns and priests could be, but I was saddened and heartbroken when the priest sexual abuse scandal broke. Even though I had already been forced out of the church by then, I did not feel vindicated in any way. I did have a work colleague who told me his son left the local seminary because all the students there were homosexuals. Of course they would be attracted to a lifestyle where they were socially accepted as celibate and could practice their sin in secrecy and cloak it under authority even if they were honestly ashamed of what they were doing.
Still, I agree with one of the commenters who pointed out the apostles' response to Christ's question, "Will you too leave me now?" with "Where would we go? You have the words of eternal life." The problem with seeking guidance from your true authentic self within is that, although you can find much good there, you will not find the first commandment. It's very hard to intellectually and internally come to the understanding of humility and why it is important. From your message, you are a clear thinker and seeker of the truth as, although an atheist, you recognize the many good people who are good at least partly because religion has an important place in their lives. You are also one who sees clearly how that impulse can be manipulated for evil.
May God bless you and keep you all the days of your life.
May you be blessed as well.
I currently hold the belief that if the Word of God is taught to a child of God, then it is only the Holy Spirit that does it. He may use the direct reading of the scripture, or the words of flawed humans, or almost any other method, but it is the Holy Spirit who is speaking.
The Holy Spirit authored the Holy Scriptures through the human writers. And he included the story of King David for good reason. The “man after God‘s own heart” who wrote beautiful Psalms, praising God, was also a bad father, and an adulterer, and a murderer.
Dear Brian, you have described an experience MANY of your readers, including me, can personally relate to because we've lived it, almost identically. Thanks for being an example of those of us who've decided to remain alert and cautious but not cynical, and not giving up on participation in a local body of believers in/followers of Jesus Christ.